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Hello! Is There Anybody out There? Just Nod if You can hear me!

  • 1.  Hello! Is There Anybody out There? Just Nod if You can hear me!

    Posted 10-09-2025 10:48

    Pink Floyd reference for attention!

    We've got 132 members in here and not a peep! I realize that most accountants and tax practitioners steer clear of this topic, and for good reason too. It's complex and ever-changing and, frankly, it's a lot to wrap your head around if you haven't spent years personally involved in the digital asset space. 

    That being said, I endeavor to demystify some of it for you here!

    Do me a favour, and post some questions you have about crypto here.... there are NO stupid questions. Anything from what it is, to how it works, from general to specific. from tax/accounting standpoint or just general knowledge. 

    I challenge you each to post one question. In response, I will slap together a video or two and we'll get some conversation flowing about this topic. Digital Assets are here to stay and I'd love to help make it a more comfortable topic for everyone. 

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    Also, I've got a very casual and easy to understand set of videos available to watch on YouTube for you and your clients regarding investment scams (which often require cryptocurrency to be purchased and transferred to fund the accounts). These scams are sweeping the nation at an unprecedented rate and our only weapon is knowledge. Please share with your colleagues, friends, and loved ones if you think they might benefit from watching. Shameless plug link here.



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    Candy Davis, CPA, CGA
    Davis Accounting & Tax
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  • 2.  RE: Hello! Is There Anybody out There? Just Nod if You can hear me!

    Posted 10-09-2025 12:46
    Edited by Hugh Neilson 27 days ago

    Be careful what you wish for...

    An asset purchased with the primary or secondary intention of resale at a profit generates ordinary business income, not capital gains.  What other purposes have you seen for the acquisition of cryptocurrency that would support classifying them as capital assets rather than adventures in the nature of trade or full business inventory?

    Let's maintain the trend - all in all, crypto is just another brick in the wall.



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    Hugh Neilson
    Kingston Ross Pasnak LLP
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  • 3.  RE: Hello! Is There Anybody out There? Just Nod if You can hear me!

    Posted 30 days ago
    Edited by Kyle Mackenzie 30 days ago

    Hi Hugh, 

    I implore you to broaden your horizons when it comes to cryptocurrency. 

    What is the intention of buying and selling Gold? What is the purpose of buying any non-dividend paying stock? Both of these would fit in the same category. 

    There are, indeed, significant functions for crypto assets. 

    1. Store of value - Bitcoin specifically. Bitcoin can be used as a hedge against the dollar, and governments creating fiat currency out of thin air. Bitcoin can be used as collateral at major banks, including JP morgan as of today and one can take loans against it.
    2. Gas or usage tokens on networks - Ethereum and Solana specifically. Eth is used as the gas/payment token for transactions on the ethereum network. These tokens are used to pay the smart contract functions to the miners of the network, ensuring network security. 
    3. Liquidity pools - Tokens can be added to liquidity pools to earn income on a regular basis - This means the underlying token itself would be used in a capital nature to earn said income. 
    4. Staking - Many crypto assets can be staked on the network to earn income on. The original pool of these assets would be a capaital gain when unstaked and disposed of, as their primary intention was capital in nature to use to earn additional income. 

    There are many reasons crypto assets qualify as capital gains in nature, and this has been confirmed by the CRA through many audits. 

    So, John,

    Breathe, breathe in the air
    Don't be afraid to care



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    Kyle Mackenzie, CPA

    Partner, CCO
    Metrics Chartered Professional Accounting
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  • 4.  RE: Hello! Is There Anybody out There? Just Nod if You can hear me!

    Posted 28 days ago
    Edited by Hugh Neilson 28 days ago

    Any intended use to earn income outside of direct resale at a profit indicates a capital asset. Most of your comments (my exception would be "a hedge against the dollar") seem like reasonable arguments for capital treatment.  Even the hedge might work in the right facts (a 1984 case, Harms, 84 DTC 1966, made such a finding; "The taxpayer's intention when he purchased the gold was to preserve his capital in the face of economic collapse. The taxpayer did not trade his gold in an ordinary manner. There was no evidence that the taxpayer intended to sell the gold at the time of acquisition. He held on to it even when the price was falling and sold it only when he was convinced that, due to oncoming deflation, he would be better off buying treasury bills.")

    Show me a court case that held that the purchase and sale of gold was on capital, rather than income, account. CRA allows commodity trades to be reported on capital account, provided this is done consistently. It is odd that they have never explicitly stated that this policy applies to cryptocurrencies, despite their consistent interpretation that cryptocurrencies are commodities.

    Corporate shares have historically been accepted as capital assets on the basis that the holder shares in the underlying corporate operations.  There was a case decided by Justice Bowman (IIRC) many years ago where he indicated that CRA accepts capital treatment far more often than is likely correct, and he interpreted that as pragmatic rather than policy-based as broader income treatment would also apply to losses.

    CRA administrative policies are not law. There have been various cases over the years where taxpayers argued they should be assessed in accordance with those policies, and the Courts have never assessed contrary to the law due to CRA administrative policies. The Scott case (https://www.canlii.org/en/ca/tcc/doc/1989/1989canlii9970/1989canlii9970.html) is a very brief decision including that issue.

    I suspect that, in the coming years, we will see case law involving income vs capital for crypto currency. If CRA leans too far to capital treatment, taxpayers suffering losses will be motivated to appeal.  If they lean too far to income treatment, taxpayers realizing gains will be similarly motivated.

    Very much an "it depends on all the facts and circumstances" matter.  My facetious argument (now outdated) might be that I acquired Bitcoin to transact with sellers of cannabis when it was illegal so I would go undetected. When cannabis was legalized, I no longer needed the Bitcoin for that purposes, so I sold it and realized capital gains.  The same argument could apply to any use of crypto for any form of transactions, when used to implement those transactions.  It need not be transactions I wanted to keep secret - maybe crypto was/is an easier payment means than $CDN, analogous to foreign currency on income or capital account.



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    Hugh Neilson
    Kingston Ross Pasnak LLP
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  • 5.  RE: Hello! Is There Anybody out There? Just Nod if You can hear me!

    Posted 27 days ago
    Edited by Candy Davis 27 days ago

    There are NO stupid questions. I appreciate the question and I believe that it follows the same thinking that was commonplace among many practitioners  (who have a very in-depth knowledge of the income tax act and precedence setting cases and rulings) when crypto taxation was becoming more of a talking point around 2014-2018 ish. You aren't alone there, I have seen some pretty in-depth analysis and tax rabbit holes taken in this direction. And boy- do I ever appreciate your vast knowledge- it used to annoy me as a young accountant ;)  Now I find you to be such a source of expertise and inspiration. 

    From a practical standpoint, when we focus on the overall way that any stock/commodity is treated (yes, under administrative guidance) the same principles are easily extended to crypto-assets without much issue. CRA will specify shortly, in new cryptocurrency webpages that are yet to be published, that "As introduced by Interpretation Bulletin IT-479R, you are generally considered to be carrying on a business if your course of conduct indicates that you are disposing of crypto-assets in a way capable of producing gains, with that object in view, and the transactions are carried out in a manner similar to a trader or dealer in securities."

    There has been a overall shift to focus less on the character of the underlying assets, and more so a focus on the activity and intention. It's interesting how much intention also falls into place with crypto-assets when we are considering An Adventure or Concern in the Nature of Trade- something that is a bit of an interesting and contentious issue when it comes to victims of crypto fraud scams. 

    I work closely with tax lawyers in the crypto space and have the opportunity to be in the middle of a muddy war between strict tax act applications vs. what will be allowed or administered by the CRA. It will be interested to see if any of these end up in court. 

    Generally, my findings from reviews of past audits are this: If there is a business income loss, CRA will do everything to deny it and will push to allow only a capital loss. For day traders- they are provided a form that doesn't relate to ANYTHING they do called a "Business Questionnaire" where they must provide answers to pages of questions to prove they have a valid business (none that relate to their particular activities in any way). These files get stuck and are messy. 

    Truthfully, most reported crypto transactions do not get audited. Every single substantial loss does. And as someone who deals heavily with clients who have experiences losses due to bankruptcies, theft, and fraud... I pull my hair out a lot (that explains where it went!)

    But yes- I believe the capital vs. income categorization issue is easily simplified by when we back up a little bit and focus on real world applications and activities- Part of the reason the income tax act could use an overhaul and our tax system has become overly complicated. We get so stuck in the ITA we forget to stop look at the big picture, the changing world, and consider the "spirit" of the regulations. 



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    Candy M. Davis, CPA, CGA
    Cryptocurrency Tax Compliance Advisor
    @Davis Accounting & Tax
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  • 6.  RE: Hello! Is There Anybody out There? Just Nod if You can hear me!

    Posted 7 days ago

    The challenge for CRA is that all they see is data from a T2125 reporting a business loss.  Revenues and expenses, but not a lot on the nature of the business (which could be as simple as a single adventure in the nature of trade). So they send a standardized checklist.

    The differentiation of "carrying on a business" (a high bar) and "adventure in the nature of trade" is often a source of confusion. A recent case that held that a TFSA was carrying on a business made a point of differentiating "carrying on a business" (which meant that the TFSA was subject to normal income tax on its business earnings) from "engaging in an adventure or concern in the nature of trade" (which would have allowed the TFSA's tax-free nature to apply to any gains).

    Most transactions in general do not get audited, and I don't think CRA can tell that a disposition reported as a capital gain or loss was crypto or something else.  Most transactions, not just crypto, don't attract CRA scrutiny, much less an actual audit. Big losses (business, rent)) are more easily identified, so they see more review activity.

    My experience with most "income versus capital" issues is that CRA tends to believe that all gains are ordinary income and all losses are capital in nature, while taxpayers and their advisors know that CRA has this backwards. Somewhere between these extremes rests reality.

    CRA has actually made it more difficult by heir charitable approach to commodities. What purpose, other than resale at a profit, would lead one to purchase hog futures or gold bars? Yet CRA allows many commodity transactions to be treated as capital in nature. That has become so ingrained that they now question someone reporting income gains or losses on commodity trades that had no possible purpose other than resale of the underlying commodity.

    When taxpayers experience losses (for example, due to bankruptcies, theft, and fraud), they will testify that they clearly had a resale intention and should be allowed a full income deduction. Did they have past sales?  Were they also reported in accordance with that clear resale intention? Frankly, even if they reported those past sales on capital account, I think those filings, not the current income loss claim, were incorrect. Of course, we can't know how the defrauded taxpayer would have reported their crypto gains if things had gone more according to plan.

    If the Courts agree, when seeing those sympathetic taxpayers who may have lost their full retirement nest egg, will that lead CRA to push more for income treatment of gains as well?  The test is not "did a gain or loss result?" but "what was the intended use when the asset (crypto or any other asset) when it was acquired?"

    A lot of courses I instruct discuss income versus capital, and often highlight that the most common assets disputed are securities and real estate. I suspect we will add crypto in the next 5 to 10 years, as these cases proceed before the Courts. Over that period, maybe we will learn more about non-resale reasons for acquiring and retaining crypto.



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    Hugh Neilson
    Kingston Ross Pasnak LLP
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  • 7.  RE: Hello! Is There Anybody out There? Just Nod if You can hear me!

    Posted 8 days ago

    "Money, it's a gas" - but reconciling crypto to ACB across DeFi is the real trip!

    I have enjoyed reading this forum (daily) so I am contributing one question and my own attempt at a Pink Floyd reference to bump this thread!

    "Grab that cash with both hands and make a stash..." is easier said than done when your USDC swaps to ETH on Uniswap then bridges to Arbitrum and adds liquidity on Camelot (earning ARB fees) journey leaves a T5008-shaped hold in your ACB. With CRA's exchange data sharing in full swing (or is it a swing and a miss?!), and the need for airtight ACB tracking, are you seeing issues in Schedule 3 reporting for multi-protocol, multi-wallet crypto clients in 2025?

    Are you using any internal, ACB carry forward schedules to override imported data, APIs to manually scrape wallets, broker invites from clients to share transaction details, or leveraging client CSVs and CRA daily rates? Any success with API workflows to automate ACB and T1135 flagging?



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    Darcy Mitchell
    United Nations Secretariat
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  • 8.  RE: Hello! Is There Anybody out There? Just Nod if You can hear me!

    Posted 7 days ago

    Properly accounting for these transactions is nightmarish.

    I was trying to think of whether there would be a more reasonable method of dealing with cryptocurrencies. I came up with two ideas:

    1. Account for all cryptocurrencies on a mark-to-market basis - However not all cryptocurrencies would have a well functioning "market price".
    2. Treat all cryptocurrencies as a single asset, have a deemed interest inclusion each year equal to the prescribed rate of interest multiplied by the opening basis of the single asset. When one cryptoasset is exchanged for another cryptoasset, that transaction isn't taxable. However whenever a cryptoasset provides a benefit to the individual or is otherwise converted to a fiat currency that amount will be treated as proceeds with no basis unless the taxpayer can adequately document the entire FMV of the cryptoasset portfolio, in which case the basis allowed will be proportionate to the proceeds. This treatment isn't particularly favorable, but if there are many transactions between crypto but few trades involving fiat currency, it is much simpler. In principle this treatment could work for reporting on both a capital account and on income account. However it wouldn't really work for a bitcoin "miner".


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    Trent Robinson
    Buckberger Baerg & Partners LLP
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  • 9.  RE: Hello! Is There Anybody out There? Just Nod if You can hear me!

    Posted 6 days ago

    @Trent Robinson I'm not sure why crypto should merit a special tax rule, different from any other type of asset. We could apply the same model you set out above to foreign currencies, commodities or conventional securities, say for securities held in a non-Canadian account that does not provide Canadian tax reporting guidance and/or is denominated in foreign currency, or even Canadian discount brokerage accounts that provide little or no guidance.

    Even Canadian securities accounts tend to struggle with some provisions (e.g. identical properties; superficial losses) especially where the taxpayer holds multiple accounts.

    For corporations, tracking separate tax reporting and GAAP reporting would be an additional administrative issue.

    Part of the challenge is reminiscent of the move to retail stock market investing in the 1990s. Neither tax nor investment advisors wanted to tell their investor clients that there was a need to account for their purchases and sales, maintain records of their costs for future sale purposes, etc. For the investment advisors, that added cost would reduce ROI, and possibly see the prospect invest in something else. The tax advisors didn't want to tell clients proper accounting would carry an increased fee. I still encounter folks who don't realize that mutual fund dispositions generate gains or losses that are not on the T3 slips.

    Now we want an easy accounting out for crypto, for more or less the same reasons. We don't want to tell clients that someone has to properly account for these transactions and those costs (whether client time to do their own accounting or client fees for third-party accounting) need to be factored into the investment decision. Maybe if these costs were better communicated up front, delivery of high quality tax data by the platforms would be a competitive advantage and all our jobs would become easier.

    If someone instead bought rental properties, would we suggest a similar fiat tax reporting structure so they don't have to keep records of rental revenues, expenses, purchases and sales? Would we recommend a similar model for business inventory? I'm not sure why so many of us see buying and selling first securities and now crypto as so completely different.



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    Hugh Neilson
    Kingston Ross Pasnak LLP
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  • 10.  RE: Hello! Is There Anybody out There? Just Nod if You can hear me!

    Posted 6 days ago

    I would agree that ACB tracking is a significant problem across many asset classes. Cryptocurrency feels somewhat different in that the conversion from one token to another can happen on a far more routine basis than other assets (and this happens for reasons that are often intrinsic to the reason why the cryptocurrency is attractive), and the work required to compute the appropriate gain/loss on each transaction is enormous, even for a diligent taxpayer.

    I had suggested the deemed interest benefit for Crypto because it allows for a tradeoff to the taxpayer - the taxpayer loses the tax-free compounding of cryptocurrencies but in exchange gets tax-deferred rollovers between different cryptocurrencies and potentially reduced compliance costs. 

    However perhaps the better solution here is to get an excellent Cryptocurrency reporting framework in place that will place the burden in the first instance on the various platforms to keep track of and report the gain/loss on crypto held within their platform. I see this as very difficult because it remains possible for people to conduct transactions directly on the blockchain without an intermediary (and this is fundamental characteristic to many cryptocurrencies).

    The two suggestions above already exist for limited categories of assets in Canadian tax law (mark-to-market for financial institutions and the deemed interest inclusion is essentially the 94.1 offshore investment trust rules). It doesn't seem that adding this treatment to some additional categories is the worst idea.

    I believe that mark-to-market treatment is appropriate for any capital asset as long as there is a low cost reliable method of valuing the asset at each taxation year end (it may not be beneficial to taxpayers, but it is "fair"). However this method of reporting can easily be exploited when the fair value relies upon the judgement of the taxpayer or the taxpayer makes up too large a portion of the market that the taxpayer can manipulate the fair value of the asset.

    I believe that the fact that taxpayers can get tax-free growth in an investment asset as long as they don't sell it creates massive problems in our economy because it creates an incentive to hold onto unproductive assets because selling it will generate a large tax bill. Further there isn't really a policy justification for allowing a deferral of tax on such appreciation (other than the rationale that taxing capital in general discourages investment, but that is why we have RRSPs and TFSAs). The deemed income inclusion is a way to reduce this tax incentive without requiring a true fair value to be generated each year.



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    Trent Robinson
    Buckberger Baerg & Partners LLP
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  • 11.  RE: Hello! Is There Anybody out There? Just Nod if You can hear me!

    Posted 6 days ago

    As you note, the potential lack of reliable FMV for many assets creates a burden.

    As to the issue of deferral until sale, I don't think picking one asset category to be the exception is ideal, as that will create its own market distortions.



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    Hugh Neilson
    Kingston Ross Pasnak LLP
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  • 12.  RE: Hello! Is There Anybody out There? Just Nod if You can hear me!

    Posted 7 days ago
    Edited by Candy Davis 7 days ago
      |   view attached

    ARG! I started a post and then it vanished on me! 

    I'm actually in the middle of building a comprehensive and technical crypto tax course right now (CAIP) (in a very easy to understand manner), and much of what's being discussed in this thread aligns directly with what I'm covering. The course walks through core tax mechanics such as capital vs. business income treatment, valuation and ACB continuity, and the proper characterization of digital assets including stablecoins, wrapped tokens, LP units, staking derivatives, and NFTs.

    From there, it moves into practical, real-world scenarios accountants are increasingly encountering: staking and validator operations, providing collateral to borrow and reinvest, day trading, losses arising from fraud or crypto scams, accepting or paying crypto in a business or contractor context, mining corporations, and businesses engaged in creating or selling digital art, deemed dispositions, etc. I also go step-by-step through how to gather data and prepare tax returns for these situations, including dealing with incomplete or inconsistent information from APIs, CSVs, explorers, and client-provided records, and how deemed dispositions arise in various contexts.

    The course also focuses on CRA audit trends, evidentiary standards, and the workflow challenges of reconciling high-volume or multi-protocol activity. Finally, I round it out with an overview of current regulatory developments, CARF, CRA's evolving guidance, and other policy insights, supported by practical case studies that mirror the complexity of real clients - including those with tens of thousands of transactions across multiple chains.

    Happy to share more as it gets closer to launch if the community is interested. Expecting to release this before the end of the year- Ideally, in a couple weeks! 



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    Candy M. Davis, CPA, CGA
    Cryptocurrency Tax Compliance Advisor
    @Davis Accounting & Tax
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